Episode title: UE2 120702 1023 T2 theory vs law
(Loose) transcript: [00:00:00.00] Michelle: I always thought the law is up here, and then the theories are down here. But after what I read, it's like it's reversed.
Gayle: I think it's that the theories are up here, and it's a repeatable occurrence that makes it a law.
Alia: Yeah.
[00:00:13.25] Gayle: You know, it's gravity was a theory until many people proved it, right? And then it becomes a law.
Michelle: But that's what I...
Tim: That's what I'm struggling with, um, but then I read somewhere that there's. Actually, here, just Google it. Difference between a theory and a law, and a law explains a phenomenon. Or something, and a theory is (inaudible). Yeah.
[00:00:36.22] (Several people talking at once.)
Wendy: It's like the difference between a force and energy.
Alia: Law seems like every (inaudible).
Tim: (inaudible) Google it.
[00:00:42.18] Alia: Every time it's tested, it comes up the same, so therefore it's never been proven untrue, so maybe that's a law.
Michelle: Well, the thing that I thought was limiting about the law was it said it only applies in very, very specific situations...
Alia: Mmhm.
Michelle: ...whereas a theory can be a lot more broad.
[00:01:01.24] Alia: Mmhm.
Michelle: So that's what made me think that a theory was a bigger deal than a law.
Alia: Oh, see I thought the other way around, was that a theory was...
(Laughing.)
[00:01:08.24] Alia: ...that a theory was...
Michelle: Only on Mondays.
Alia: A theory, I thought a theory was like somebody's idea based on evidence, but that it, but that there's, maybe nothing to prove it untrue, per se.
[00:01:21.10] Michelle: Well, doesn't it sound like a law would be a lot more accepted than a theory? A theory is still...
Alia: Yeah.
Gayle: Yeah. Right.
Michelle:...well we're still guessin' about this, and we're still tryin' to prove it. But a law! Done deal.
[00:01:28.16] Alia: Exactly.
Tim: Which get, this is really good actually. (Reading:) 'A scientific law is the description of an observed phenomenon that says. Like, for instance, Kepler's laws of planetary motion describe the motion of planets but they do not explain why they are that way. A theory is a scientific explanation of an observed phenomenon.'
[00:01:49.18] Alia: So one's observed and one's not?
Tim: So a law is a description of it, a theory is an attempt to explain...
Michelle: An explanation.
Tim:...why it's happening.
[00:01:57.22] Gayle: Oh, that's not right.
(?): Well that don't make sense.
(?): It doesn't make sense.
Tim laughing.
[00:02:01.29] Michelle: Well, you just get right on there and edit that sucker.
Alia: That does not make sense to me.
Tim: Sure it does!
Alia: So this one's saying that it's not observed or that this one is.
[00:02:08.23] Tim: A scientific law is a description of an observed phenomenon. Just describing it, not trying to figure out why it's happening.
Alia: (inaudible) explanation.
Michelle: Right.
Tim: It's just a description.
[00:02:17.20] Michelle: Right. Right.
Alia: Oh.
Tim: (Drops pen) Gravity. The pen falls toward the earth. A theory would be why is this pen falling.
Gayle: I think the earth is sucking, or maybe it's just the table.
Tim: Yeah.
[00:02:30.12] Gayle: That is interesting.
Tim: Yeah! It is interesting.
Gayle: And now we're the smartest table in the room.
Alia: I want to see a different, I want to see a different one.
Michelle laughing.
[00:02:39.03] Tim: A different definition.
Gayle (playfully): I don't like that one.
Alia: Yes.
Tim: Okay. WikiAnswers.
(Gayle says something inaudible.)
[00:02:43.01] Tim: Which you know is very hit and miss.
Alia: Well, what about some sort of, like, um, government website or something?
Tim: Cause we can trust the government.
Alia laughing. Says: Well, more than Wikipedia.
[00:02:53.07] Wendy: That's what I would have said a law was.
Tim: Ah! So this person...
Wendy: Something the government (inaudible).
(Michelle laughs.)
[00:02:57.25] Tim: A law is a readily observable fact about something. Um...
Michelle: Yeah, Kepler was really, you know, governmental republican, I'm sure.
Tim:...so it's talking about what you observe. A theory is an advanced hypothesis, blah blah blah, it's a stupid definition.
(?): Blah blah blah
Gayle: I think it's that the theories are up here, and it's a repeatable occurrence that makes it a law.
Alia: Yeah.
[00:00:13.25] Gayle: You know, it's gravity was a theory until many people proved it, right? And then it becomes a law.
Michelle: But that's what I...
Tim: That's what I'm struggling with, um, but then I read somewhere that there's. Actually, here, just Google it. Difference between a theory and a law, and a law explains a phenomenon. Or something, and a theory is (inaudible). Yeah.
[00:00:36.22] (Several people talking at once.)
Wendy: It's like the difference between a force and energy.
Alia: Law seems like every (inaudible).
Tim: (inaudible) Google it.
[00:00:42.18] Alia: Every time it's tested, it comes up the same, so therefore it's never been proven untrue, so maybe that's a law.
Michelle: Well, the thing that I thought was limiting about the law was it said it only applies in very, very specific situations...
Alia: Mmhm.
Michelle: ...whereas a theory can be a lot more broad.
[00:01:01.24] Alia: Mmhm.
Michelle: So that's what made me think that a theory was a bigger deal than a law.
Alia: Oh, see I thought the other way around, was that a theory was...
(Laughing.)
[00:01:08.24] Alia: ...that a theory was...
Michelle: Only on Mondays.
Alia: A theory, I thought a theory was like somebody's idea based on evidence, but that it, but that there's, maybe nothing to prove it untrue, per se.
[00:01:21.10] Michelle: Well, doesn't it sound like a law would be a lot more accepted than a theory? A theory is still...
Alia: Yeah.
Gayle: Yeah. Right.
Michelle:...well we're still guessin' about this, and we're still tryin' to prove it. But a law! Done deal.
[00:01:28.16] Alia: Exactly.
Tim: Which get, this is really good actually. (Reading:) 'A scientific law is the description of an observed phenomenon that says. Like, for instance, Kepler's laws of planetary motion describe the motion of planets but they do not explain why they are that way. A theory is a scientific explanation of an observed phenomenon.'
[00:01:49.18] Alia: So one's observed and one's not?
Tim: So a law is a description of it, a theory is an attempt to explain...
Michelle: An explanation.
Tim:...why it's happening.
[00:01:57.22] Gayle: Oh, that's not right.
(?): Well that don't make sense.
(?): It doesn't make sense.
Tim laughing.
[00:02:01.29] Michelle: Well, you just get right on there and edit that sucker.
Alia: That does not make sense to me.
Tim: Sure it does!
Alia: So this one's saying that it's not observed or that this one is.
[00:02:08.23] Tim: A scientific law is a description of an observed phenomenon. Just describing it, not trying to figure out why it's happening.
Alia: (inaudible) explanation.
Michelle: Right.
Tim: It's just a description.
[00:02:17.20] Michelle: Right. Right.
Alia: Oh.
Tim: (Drops pen) Gravity. The pen falls toward the earth. A theory would be why is this pen falling.
Gayle: I think the earth is sucking, or maybe it's just the table.
Tim: Yeah.
[00:02:30.12] Gayle: That is interesting.
Tim: Yeah! It is interesting.
Gayle: And now we're the smartest table in the room.
Alia: I want to see a different, I want to see a different one.
Michelle laughing.
[00:02:39.03] Tim: A different definition.
Gayle (playfully): I don't like that one.
Alia: Yes.
Tim: Okay. WikiAnswers.
(Gayle says something inaudible.)
[00:02:43.01] Tim: Which you know is very hit and miss.
Alia: Well, what about some sort of, like, um, government website or something?
Tim: Cause we can trust the government.
Alia laughing. Says: Well, more than Wikipedia.
[00:02:53.07] Wendy: That's what I would have said a law was.
Tim: Ah! So this person...
Wendy: Something the government (inaudible).
(Michelle laughs.)
[00:02:57.25] Tim: A law is a readily observable fact about something. Um...
Michelle: Yeah, Kepler was really, you know, governmental republican, I'm sure.
Tim:...so it's talking about what you observe. A theory is an advanced hypothesis, blah blah blah, it's a stupid definition.
(?): Blah blah blah
Commentary: Just before this episode starts, Alia has commented that she was surprised when she completed the (VNOS) pre-survey, because it asked her questions that seemed to have little to do with the UE1 and UE2 courses she took before. She was wishing out loud that they would have taken the time as a class to discuss them, because she's not sure she understands the questions. In particular, she wants to know what is the difference between a theory and a law. (By the way, as a note to self, many of the teachers at this table described Googling their answers to the pre-surveys.) Michelle responds with her answer to this question, and this is where the episode starts.
This was a fun video for me to watch -- I love their playfulness and their laughter. (And Alia is participating! A rare treat to hear what she thinks.) Several things stuck out to me:
- The different ways that the teachers talked about laws and theories. Michelle talks about one being "higher than" the other; Gayle talks about one being a refinement of the other; and Tim talks about them serving different purposes.
- The language that Alia and Michelle use in the first half of the episode: prove, guessing, done deal.
- Alia's asking to see another website (perhaps a government one) -- this suggests to me that she does not accept what Wikipedia (or whatever site they're looking at) says at face value. She challenges it and wants more information.
- We wanted to know why we care about the difference between a theory and a law. (We scientists don't really even know the difference.) I pointed out that even if we scientists don't know the words, we do know that there are different kinds of things -- explanations, descriptions, etc. -- and I think that's the spirit of the question (and the conversation that Alia, Gayle, Tim, Michelle, and Wendy are having).
- Rachel (?) noticed that looking stuff up on the internet did them no harm -- they sense-make about it and evaluate what they found.
- Brandon felt that Michelle's comment to Gayle about editing the Wiki was dismissive; someone else felt it was empowering ("You go girl!").
- We wondered what the ambiguous joking was a sign of -- epistemic distancing? Something else?
- Renee Michelle (?) got the sense that the teachers in the episode feel that they can make progress on this question, and that is significant to her.
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